[00:00] Hi, and welcome to Broker Tools, where we unpack the tools, systems, and strategies that help brokers optimize the way they work. I'm Katie, your host, and today we're diving into one of my favorite topics, systems. Um, specifically, how we build them, and how we find your systems champion, the one person in your business who keeps everything running smoothly when you're not around. Joining me for this conversation is someone who literally wrote the book on it, David. Um he is the founder of systemmology. Dave, great to have you here. >> I love talking about systems. So we are in the right place. >> I know. And I you and I were just talking about this how we've had a whole history around it and um you and I have done some work together in the first iteration of systemmology. So you and I might go down rabbit holes. That has been a theme of mine to go down rabbit holes. But before we do, I thought it would be good for people to have a little bit of background on you because
[01:02] I think your first business was was it rock and roll clothing? >> Yes, I've had quite a few. I think rock and roll clothing almost like a an off your tree but without the uh drugrelated paraphernalia. We made a a store like that. We also had a stock market education business, an SEO business, a video business, a direct mail business. So, lots of different things over the years. They all really had a current of systems and processes in there though. And I've really just come home to roost now, working right in my sweet spot in Systemmology and System Hub, uh, which is a big part of just helping business owners get off the tools out of operations and build businesses that, um, help them to achieve some freedom. >> Nice. And I think when you think about I guess the through threads like you were just saying of all of those, it came down to systems. >> Yeah. I stock market education space
[02:07] that was all about building out trading plans which is a system when to buy when to sell what position size do you have all of that was a set of rules in the planet 13 which was our rock and roll clothing music store we franchised that >> so there was a head office manual and there was a store manual and it was funny when I got to the digital agency that was the one that really got me to rethink about systems because I I got stuck in the weeds for many years and I was the guy and for some reason in that business I thought oh well this business is different it can't be systemized Google's always updating things are changing we're a creative agency I came up with all these excuses how and why it couldn't work and then it wasn't until I found out we were pregnant and then I thought well this has got to change I'm working 80our work weeks and I need to make sure that I can be a present father so That's when I thought some changes needed to happen and we went down the rabbit hole of systemizing that,
[03:10] plugging in an operations manager. I took a year off and that's when I really discovered my true passion. I I realized that I like helping business owners and that systems and processes was this theme and I was built for it because not only did I have the systems background and my dad's a systems engineer, I kind of lost my way with the digital agency and then I got back on track and and it was through that that helped me to learn a lot of things about what it takes to to build a business that works without you >> which I guess in a way when you think about a broker as a mortgage broker business. Sometimes you're in the same position. You know, you are the broker that goes through and does all of those things because you think you're the key part that needs to hold it all together. >> It's very common for brokers to be in that spot because they start off as soloreneurs. They start their own business. They're doing the deals. They're handling the paperwork. And because of that, they get so used to
[04:14] doing the work, it traps them into thinking that's how business needs to be. Some brokers maybe take that next little step where they might get a virtual assistant and they hand over some of the tasks, administrative things, and that frees them up. But very few of them move beyond the point of plugging in other brokers underneath them and then building a business where uh they own a mortgage broking business rather than being a mortgage broker. >> Yeah. And I guess as we go through and we are talking about systems, one of the frameworks I have found that works that you often talk about is your CCF flows. And I think if you're okay with it, we could probably talk through the CCF flow because as a broker, I think if you understood your the the we should probably actually give it its name, that critical client flow. >> Yeah. Look, I think the critical client flow is a tool that I first talked about in the systemology book. That was my
[05:17] first book on the topic. What it does is it describes the linear journey that a prospect and then as they turn into a client and the business delivers the product or service. It's just a straight line effectively from not knowing who you are through to you delivering that core product or service. And it's a way to answer the question where do you start with systemization? A lot of people get stuck going well what should I systemize first? And by doing the critical client flow, by thinking about what's already working in your business, getting very clear on a target audience and a primary product or service, and then mapping that journey, it just makes it so much easier to systemize and also uncover pain points in the business because you might go, "Oh, I don't have enough leads." And then you look at the critical client flow and you realize, well, the only way I tend to get leads is through word of mouth. And then you wonder why you haven't got enough leads. Well, you need
[06:21] some lead generation systems. Or maybe you're having trouble managing the expectations of clients and they're following you up every second moment to find out where they're whether or not they've been approved and whether or not their mortgage is going through. And you might go, well, maybe there's a problem there with your client onboarding and how you communicate with the client to set appropriate expectations because it's my belief that all problems in business are systems problems. So the problems that you're having that will appear through the exercise of the critical client flow then become those pain points that you want to go to work on and install better systems around. So yeah, the the critical client flow it's, you know, attention, handling that incoming inquiry, what's your sales process, how do you onboard the client, you know, do you collect money, where do you collect the money? I think for mortgage broking, I mean, most of it's built into once the the loan is approved. Then there's the doing of the work, setting
[07:23] up the mortgage itself, and then probably some sort of handover to the client where you're letting them know what work has been done and they've been approved and everything's all set up and the client's happy. So, it's just mapping that journey, but I know you've gone a lot deeper, Katie, with mortgage brokers. So, what insights have you picked up along the way doing this in mortgage broking business? I honestly say that everything you've said is relevant in my experience. Um and so what you've mapped out is all the key points that um they kind of go through first. How do you do lead generation? Is that coming through correctly? But then you know once we've got that going um you know who do we need to have on our team um to run it? Because now that you know your map, there's going to there's now key indicators as to who should be taking over that that particular system or that particular process. Yeah. And this is where I think we end up nerding
[08:26] because this is where technology people and process meet. I think a lot of mortgage brokers once they get clear on just how their business makes money, which is what the critical client flow does, it it captures uh that journey. Then it becomes much easier to go what are we currently doing at each one of these stages? And then like you said, you then can start to think about okay and whom on your team can do it. you know, if you're a small team, if it's you, or if you've got a virtual assistant, which of those tasks can be passed over? And once you start to define what each of the steps are and what the systems are that support that step to make sure that it's done to an appropriate standard, it really starts to give you the visibility on how this business can work without you. Often times, it's a lot simpler once you actually get started. People just think it's overwhelming at the start. where do I start, which systems, how much detail, >> you know, how am I going to capture
[09:29] this? Uh, fortunately, a lot of this also has got infinitely easier now with the introduction of AI because a lot of the way that we previously used to do things. The the biggest friction point, for example, was the documentation, actually writing out a standard operating procedure or a how-to document on how you handle that in incoming inquiry. That used to be challenging, but now, you know, we can record you doing that task in the moment, transcribe it, feed it into chat GPT, ask it to draft a process. Um, or or something like SystemHub, our tool where we do it all in the platform. It's really easy now to start building these processes out. And that's step number one is having the processes documented because you can't really hold someone to a standard or you can't delegate a task unless you've got it documented. It's the first step. Uh then then you know you can kind of move into some of the other stages around getting people to
[10:33] follow it consistently and build up a systems culture. But you can't do any of that until it's first documented so you can set clear expectations. >> Yeah. And I guess that's the hard part at the beginning of any I guess phasing out process is making the time to build that process. >> Yeah, it's fortunately like I said it's it's much quicker now. What used to take months if not a year we can now do with some focused attention over the course of a couple of weeks. It's just so much quicker once we've got these AI powered tools to do a lot of the heavy lifting. which I guess this part is what we've also talked about is now that you've got your systems and your processes in place, it's finding the people or the champions to run those systems and processes. >> Yeah. So, a big part of the work that I've been doing lately is this idea of the systems and AI champion, which I'm finding a lot of business owners and
[11:37] mortgage brokers, they don't necessarily love the documentation piece. It's not their sweet spot. I know there's obviously a huge amount of documentation in in mortgage broking, but oftentimes mortgage brokers, they love hopping on the phone, chatting with people, doing all the relationship part, which is really where they're adding the most value. The backend administrative work and even the documentation is not always the best use of their time. So, I I think wherever you're at, one of those first steps towards building a systems driven business is getting someone on your team on your team who loves this. And maybe it's a virtual assistant. They can be local. They could be off offshore. They could be a return to work mom or dad. Just someone who is naturally organized, who loves writing out checklists, and they do it even if they weren't told to. and someone who can come into the organization and with a little bit of direction and guidance through you know the systems champion book or systemology just say hey this is what I want to do
[12:41] here and I want to capture some of our best practice processes and empowering them to to keep it moving forward because as a broker that's the other thing whenever you get a call from a client you're obviously going to prioritize that you're going to hop on the phone there's 10 other things that feel urgent and important. So that that's going to get your time. Whereas the development of systems and processes is always important, but it's very rarely urgent. So that's another reason why we want to have someone on the team who can keep moving it forward. And that systems and AI champion um is critical because they can help to document and depending on if you select them correctly they can also start to look for the AI opportunities as well because once they understand systems and they understand how your business works it's a very small step for them to then say ah and how can AI help us do that faster cheaper and better. So it's this particular role I'm finding is more and more important and
[13:46] fortunately more accessible because this used to be a you know$1 $150,000 position and you get a six sigma lean consultant to come in and do it for you and that's why most larger businesses they were the ones doing this but it wasn't really happening down at the small end of town with smaller business but the AI tools uh putting this in reach of every business and it's now more important than ever to capture this uh this way of of working and leveraging these tools. So, it's it's a great time to be systemizing your business. >> Yeah. And and like you said, like once you find that person, they kind of nerd out on systems, too. So, they now know your growth plan. They know the trajectory that you're wanting to go on. And because they have that goal in mind, they know to keep the thing up to date. they know how to document and or make sure that those things are in place so that when and if you decide to onboard another person or even if you want to train an AI agent to take over part of
[14:50] that job you cuz agents whether they're AI or human still need a job description. Yeah, that's probably one of the biggest things we're finding that in an AI powered world, the best most important skill you can have is systems thinking. And because as you use the AI, it needs to be told what to do. That's where a lot of people are getting stuck and lost with AI, they're chasing shiny objects. They're asking the question, what can AI do for my business? Instead of asking, this is what I do. How can AI help me do that faster, cheaper, and better? And you'll get infinitely better results by taking existing SOPs and processes and documentation and using that to ask the AI, can you help me with this? I think all of my best clients, the ones that are moving the quickest and getting the quickest wins with AI, are all of the ones that have great process in place. So, it kind of is reinforcing to me how important it is
[15:54] right now. >> Yeah. And I I kind of want to go down a rabbit hole with like how you can actually teach AI agents and then have like a managing AI agent. Um, but I'm not going to do that. But it does come back to that whole systems thinking where you're saying once we've gone through your critical client flow, now we know the people and the systems and the processes that need to run it. you now find your human because we always still need a human um what we call quality control um facilitator over your systems and processes because whether it is an AI agent or another human running your systems and processes you do need someone who is advocating for your business all the time you call it a systems champion but at the end of the day they're your your co- business partner is what I see them >> and depending on the size of the business as Well, might be about how you tackle it diff differently. I know some people talk about this idea of an integrator or an operations manager.
[16:58] Often times they can be quite high level senior roles and I almost see the systems champion as a different role from those roles. I think when you're just getting started with your systems and your processes journey, it can be more of a junior. They might grow into that role. the operations manager type role, but they they start off really learning about your business. It's almost like an apprenticeship of understanding how your business works, what are the various tasks and how is it completed? And then there'll be parts that they might be able to help out with to get completed or if you've got other team members, it's about them documenting it and capturing it to try and remove some of that key person dependency. Um so it really depends on the size of the business. I think this is accessible at all levels >> and I think um once you get into the routine of one having that team member um your advocate on systems um the
[18:01] growth that happens for you as a as a business owner let alone for your business as as a whole just changes the game. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I I realized it was so important. I mean, that's why I ended up writing the book about it. The first book, Systemmology, was written for the business owner and then the second book is written for the team member that helps the business owner do this to build out a systems and AI culture. I take writing books very seriously because they take a lot of work and I find them quite painful to write. They feel great once they're done, but it's slow and painful. So, I thought long and hard about this topic and I feel like right now it's the biggest leverage point every business owner. If you plug a systems and AI champion into your business, it'll have extraordinary impact. And with the AI knocking at our doors, you probably can't allocate your resources better than to this particular role.
[19:04] >> Yeah. And part of me I I will always nerd out on how better, faster, and more ways we can optimize a a broker business, let alone your own personal life. Um cuz I feel like when you build systems and processes, and then you find that other person who can champion for it, then this whole other world opens up for you. And whether you choose to again invest back into the business or start another side hustle, which often is the case, it's that uh space to breathe. >> Yeah, systems definitely bring space and that's generally when the business owner does their best work. A lot of business owners just get caught up in the busy work and they're responding to client emails and requests. They're chasing leads. They're trying to put out fires. They're answering staffing questions. Many of these things can be solved by just having great systems and processes in place. Once you do that, it frees you up, gets you out of the day-to-day operations. And then you can work much
[20:08] more strategically. You can identify the biggest opportunities in your mortgage business and say, "Ah, you know, if I work on this particular project that I never get time to do, we're going to jump forward in leaps and bounds." And now you have space to work on that. But it all starts with systems, getting things documented, then being able to delegate it, making sure that it gets done to an appropriate standard. That then frees you up. The aim of the game with systems is to always be effectively moving tasks down to typically uh less skilled, lowerc cost team members, which then free you up to work on the highest value activities. Previously, that was moving down to team members, but a team member, like you mentioned, could also be AI. It's about capturing how something's done and then letting an AI do it or a human do it and making sure that it's done to your standards so you can feel good enough to let it go and then move on to the next uh higher value activity. I love it
[21:11] because um even just as we're talking I feel like peace of mind coming through like as in that whole space as we were just saying and that calmness and um just the other day we I was talking to Christian who is a mortgage broker coach and we were talking about the chaos and how sometimes um brokers love the chaos and the the energy of it. But when you can actually have enough structure in your place, you can open up that window of thinking so you can have the energy. And I think when you have, I guess, that peace of mind, that gap energy, and you're not running on chaos anymore, it really it is actually going to be much more better for your business and growth than if you were running on chaos all the time. >> Yeah. And there's some parts in your business I think that any mortgage broker would agree it's best to remove the chaos from like there are certain administrative tasks and the way that a deal needs to be structured and set up
[22:16] and forms collected and they just need to happen and the more you can just make that happen without you having to think about it more space it gives you. Now you can then apply that chaos energy or that that energy into something else. And maybe it's lead generation or maybe it's uh like you you find out where it needs to go. Like it's great to have a sense of urgency and energy in uh both the marketing and the sales department because that's that's really what's driving the energy and keeping the business going. But there are parts of the business where you would also just like to have things handled so that can spend more energy and focus in on that. So I often times as well a lot of mortgage brokers they'll trick themselves into thinking that they love that chaos because that's all they've ever known. And it's not until they see a systems driven business that they go, "Oh wow, there's a better way. It's much better. I can step away for a weekend or a week and have a holiday with a family
[23:22] and realize that my systems are going to ensure that clients are responded to, projects will keep moving forward and things won't fall apart. Uh there's definitely something to be said for that and it's just a lot of mortgage brokers don't believe it can be possible for them because they've never experienced it. Um, but all you have to do is uh there are examples in the mortgage broking industry all around you of businesses that have been built that work without the business owner. So, it's definitely possible in your industry. It's um and why not you? Of course you. This is something that you can do. You just have to start taking the right steps and working on the right things and systems and processes. They are the core building blocks of all great business. Um, thank you Dave. I really appreciate that. And I think if people wanted to continue this conversation with you around systems and processes, where should they go? >> Yeah, look, I think if you head to Amazon, search systemology. That'll get
[24:26] you on to my first book. It'll link to the second book, Systems Champion. Books are a great place to start. If you're listening to this, that means you like audio. There are audio versions of the book, so you can have a listen to that. And then if you need a little bit more help, just go to systemmology.com and then you'll find links to our social media and different resources to get you started. >> Perfect. Um again, thank you. And um again, if you do have questions for Dave, feel free to comment below um and or reach out and I will be sure to make sure that he gets those messages and who knows, we might do another podcast later. >> Perfect. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Katie. Easy. Nice at the end. Yeah. Perfect. >> Hey, thank you for staying. I mean, usually people wipe out. So, if you're here, you know that there's a little behind the scenes conversation about to happen. Um, yeah, Dave and I actually talk a little bit more philosophy on how we think about systems and processes.
[25:29] And if you want to enjoy that chat with us, uh, come watch it with us. Again, feel free to share any feedback cuz I'm always here for it. Catch you there. >> For you and me, we've actually come from an SEO background. We understood um we understand marketing as a funnel system. And when you come in with that kind of mindset rather than just a systemology mindset, everything else is different. It really and because everything is from lead through to sale, even though you talk about it, if you're not thinking about people from an audience point of view, I I think of team members as audiences. I think of them as as how do you go into like your CRM and how do you find and navigate it like you're navigating a website. Does that make sense? M >> so I do a lot of more CRM design but I treat it like a web marketing process. >> Yes. >> And so like like I said we came from a different background and so it's one of those things where how you frame your
[26:31] thinking matters when you're going into systemizing a person's business. >> Yes. Yeah. I think you're right. It's um it's hard to know what what it is that we've learned along the way that makes us good at what we do versus what like cuz we teach it but there's obviously going to be a lot of gaps in well I thought that's just common knowledge. Of course business works like this but it's it's obviously not >> and and the more conversations I've had most businesses don't think about it from a marketing point of view. Yes. Yeah. >> They think it from an operational point of view. And so it's when you think about everything is marketing from team members through to the whole operational thing. It just it really um everything is marketing in my head. >> You're you're you're telling your your customers that you're the best person to work for. You're telling your team members that you're the best person to work for. Everybody needs to stick and stay around.
[27:34] >> Yeah. It's all marketing. I like it. >> It's all marketing.
